SNES music is kind of strange. I always see people debating over whether the SNES sound is better than Genesis, or that the SNES is more powerful just because it creates more realistic sounding instruments, all without knowing what exactly both consoles can do, and what their sound chips are made to be able to sound like. I'm surprised after all this time that people can't understand that the YM2612 is higher quality and more powerful than the SPC700, and I tell many people that both consoles are unique and capable of their own dedicated sound and one will do a better job at a certain type of music than the other. A Genesis may be able to create ambient sounds, but it won't be as good as an SNES can do it. Likewise, if an SNES tryed to replicate something from Thunderforce IV or Streets of Rage, it would fail miserably =P
Idk why I felt like I had to say that, but there you go, a bit of a Raijin moment =\
Yuzo Koshiro did many SNES soundtracks. Super Adventure Island is pretty similar in character to Streets of Rage. Jonathan Dunn's Jurassic Park soundtrack is another I'd compare to SoR.
I do agree that the sound quality of the Genesis was objectively better, since the SNES is severely limited by the bandwidth of its ADPCM samples. Especially in emulation, where you can eliminate the noise floor. You can't make the ADPCM samples sound much better with emulation, sadly.
But... what kind of definition are you using for "powerful"? I would argue that the SNES was far more powerful than the Genesis. While the Genesis produces cleaner, better quality sounds, the SNES can produce sampled versions of everything the Genesis can do, and of everything it can't. It's way more versatile than the Genesis. Many SNES soundtracks featured FM sounds quite heavily (e.g. SimCity, Mario Allstars).
In the end, though, the capabilities of the SNES were made completely obsolete by the software rendering trackers that followed. (ST3, FT2, IT, etc.) Compared to most sample based trackers, the SNES isn't different in any particularly interesting way; it's just kind of an inferior version of them.
To be fair, the Genesis is also obsolete compared to modern softsynths (though good FM softsynths came a bit later, I think), but at least it's a weird/interesting combination of hardware to work with.
"It's way more versatile than the Genesis. Many SNES soundtracks featured FM sounds quite heavily (e.g. SimCity, Mario Allstars)."
Sample quality will still suffer. Many games used PSG or FM sounds to reduce ram use. There is Mega drive games that produce better PCM sound(the drums at least) then the snes.
"Especially in emulation, where you can eliminate the noise floor. You can't make the ADPCM samples sound much better with emulation, sadly."
You can disable filting to make high quality samples sound better(though most games have heavily compressed samples. Bass samples tend to have serious noise with out it. So I only use it with Tales of Phantasa.) I may have exaggerated about the get better sound part.
SPC tool, Audio Overload, OPENSPC, and multiple others...
Also, you said about low-quality samples? Ever hear the soundtrack of Chrono Trigger? Beautiful samples and beautiful use of them.
I was talking about software players on THE REAL SNES hardware. Not snes emulation. Chrono trigger is one game. And the qualty is beat by Tales of phantasa
I think the thing we need to know here is that no chip is better than the other. I guess it just goes by your personal preference, whether you like FM synthesis more, or sampled instruments more.
While the Genesis produces cleaner, better quality sounds, the SNES can produce sampled versions of everything the Genesis can do.
This is not true, one of the properties of the FM Synthesis is that it is not scalable, this means that the formula and the modulation will vary the sound trough it frequency range.
In other words, sampling a C-4 of an FM Synthesis is not enough to make a E-5.
So, to "produce" sampled versions of ONE FM instrument in the SNES you should use almost all the memory of the SNES, because you have to sample all the notes, from C-0 to C-8 (YM2612 range). And that is a waste of memory.
In a simpler way: FM is a process, you cannot "sample" a changing algorithm having only one part of it.
EDIT: And how about the LFO?, if you sample a note while it is using the LFO of the YM2612 you will obtain the others notes with a FASTER or SLOWER LFO. But the LFO in the YM2612 has an absolute speed, independently of the instrument note!. So, this is another thing that you cannot recreate using the SNES (of course, maybe wasting all the RAM :P, but it's a very bad idea).
The same for the AR changes, DR, etc, etc, etc.
FM -> Sample is not a viable way.
For example, you cannot obtain the second note using a sampled version of the first one, or obtain the first note using a sample of the second note. Check out the attach.
And there are MUCH MORE OBVIOUS examples of the "no scalability" of an FM instrument, train sounds, laser effects that can change in a HUGE way if you play high or lower notes, "water" effects, storms, etc. I mean, IT IS AN ALGORITHM AFTER ALL. :P
I'm not saying the SNES can do exactly what FM can do. I know they're plenty of synthesis gymnastics you can do, but that's not really that relevant. What I mean is that any individual timbre the Genesis makes can be reasonably reproduced on the SNES. (I mean you can create a musically functional replacement for it.)
Using FM samples to make music is very viable, and there are plenty of SNES soundtracks that prove this, e.g. SimCity, Earthworm Jim. (Actually, EWJ is a really good one to compare against the Genesis version to get an idea of how the systems really do compare.)
What is not viable is trying to emulate FM synthesis with samples, but that's a completely different thing to try to do. I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that an FM tone sampled at one pitch is usable across the whole range (of course that'll never work). I'm trying to objectively compare the capability of the SNES or Genesis to make music.
Personally, I'd rather make music on the Genesis than the SNES, but that's because I like the boundaries that come with it. I would never argue that SNES has a weaker sound system. Sampling is soooo much more versatile than FM operations, even within the rather modest limits of the SNES.
Anyhow, sorry to get off topic. I like your tracker. I haven't made anything to speak of with it yet, 'cause I spend most of my music time on FamiTracker, but I think it's a pretty neat program.
I'm not saying the SNES can do exactly what FM can do. [...] I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that an FM tone sampled at one pitch is usable across the whole range.
Ohh, ok then. I thought you meant something else.
rainwarrior wrote:
Sampling is soooo much more versatile than FM operations, even within the rather modest limits of the SNES.
And what is "versatile" in a game console?.
I think that the SPC700, using huge space of the cartridge for music, is something NOT versatile for a game platform.
But well, this depends how do you define "versatility" in a soundchip for a game console of 1990.
rainwarrior wrote:
Anyhow, sorry to get off topic. I like your tracker. I haven't made anything to speak of with it yet, 'cause I spend most of my music time on FamiTracker, but I think it's a pretty neat program.
No problem!, the multi-system support of DefleMask, and the new chips to add in it, is something that will bring some interesting discussions. Do not apologize for it.
Sample music is inferior on consoles. The consoles usually don't have enough ram or rom space to provide enough space for high quality samples. Games like Sercet of mana and tales of phantasa can dedicated enough space for large varitey of intruments(still ram limited).
Even till the PSX era sample quality was still not good enough to compare to streamed music.(At least it had Amiga or higher quality with good experience)
Ram has always been a limitation but it's worse for tracker music.
rainwarrior wrote:
Try ripping the samples from Chrono Trigger. They are not high quality at all.
But... this was my point. Chrono Trigger has all kinds of sounds that are simply impossible on the Genesis.
You were supposed to listen to this on a TV. The quality of samples usually wasn't an issue when actually listening to the music as intended.
What happens when I use good speakers on my TV? Will make the sound better? Also the lack of filtering will make samples worse(most of them are compressed. And the SNES develop a filtering system to combat the little ram).
"So, to "produce" sampled versions of ONE FM instrument in the SNES you should use almost all the memory of the SNES, because you have to sample all the notes, from C-0 to C-8 (YM2612 range). And that is a waste of memory."
Can you try shorting them as best as possible and looping and streaming samples when needed :P(I know the snes can do it. I heard that streaming is possible as long as the samples are 4-bit)
Honestly though, the biggest truth I can think of is that there's absolutely nothing interesting about the SPC700 as there is the YM2612. SPC700 is basically nothing more than a lower quality version of music that people create today in almost the same fasion. YM2612 on the other hand well... it's FM synth, so of course it's completely unique. It's no end of fun being creative with FM synth and trying to replicate stuff that was on the NES or SNES with that sound. Another thing that comes to mind is the PCM channel. The PCM channel sounds higher quality then the SPC700. We already know why, but isn't that interesting as well. You could theoretically recreate a sound from an SNES game and jam it into that one PCM channel. From guitars to percussion. Actually, something Daleksam showed me once comes to mind. A strange, but interesting romhack for the Genesis.
