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FamiTracker
Indeed, this may or may not be a silly question to pose as far as FamiTracker is concerned, but basically, would the ability to use multiple expansion chips at the same time ever be a possibility?
Now, before you go and say "Well Betasword, that'd be impossible, because the NES couldn't do something crazy like that!" or something, I'll attach two .nsf's that I just so happened to find randomly laying around in a collection I didn't even know I had.
First thing I noticed about these when playing them in NSF Live? The little box that lists expansion chips in use. Normally, I'd expect to see 2A03 + (something else goes here), but one of them has 2A03 + VRC7 + N106, and the other has 2A03 + VRC7 + MMC5 + N106.
Now, I'm sure there's SOME way to get .nsf's that make use of multiple expansion chips, and apparently they can be played by at least one NSF player. But I have no idea what methods would be required to create those, and they probably wouldn't be anywhere nearly as neat and tidy as the ability to do so in FamiTracker.
Mind you, I know this isn't something that would (or could) be added at the drop of a hat. I'm just presenting the idea of multiple expansion chips as a future maybe kinda sorta possibility that'd be pretty awesome if it was eventually added.
And it's not possible in actual hardware because of how limited the NES & cartridges actually are.
Mind you, you can always compose two FTM files with the same tempo/2A03 channel notes, while using different expansions for each file. Then, export both FTM files to WAV & combine.
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we will very likely see them in the future FamiCompos[/quote]
The only NSF that I know of that uses all of those (minus FDS) (there may be others) is one of the demo tunes provided with the Ultimate ppMCK reference, the FF11 Metalwork cover, by Robokabuto.
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From what I recall, jsr has no interest in adding features to FamiTracker that aren't possible on the real NES. The only exception I know of is the feature to set the clock rate, and even then it's possible to change that on the NES with some hardware tweaking, which I'm guessing is one reason why the feature made it in.
This Robokabuto guy seems to have a bit of a tendency to use multiple expansion chips, I've noticed... As it turns out, this random collection I didn't even know I had contains 39 of his .nsfs. There's quite a bit of crazy stuff in there, and I'm not just talking about showing off what N106 can do. I wish I would've heard of him earlier than today...
While I can understand jsr having the position of not including things that'd be impossible to have work on a real NES, it would be kinda disappointing to not have that capability available in FamiTracker somewhere down the line, even if it's a long way into the future. From the looks of it, the only way to accomplish this now is to use MML, and after looking through some, it's just boggling my mind. Though that may partly be due to a lack of sleep, as well...
i guess i don't really understand the excitement about using multiple sound chips (or even just N106 alone... but that's another story haha.) if you make a 25 channel (or whatever) XM/IT using chip wave samples, it's not especially interesting to anyone. doing the same thing in nsf format is no different in practice, yet people get excited about it and believe it deserves special merit. i think people get too preoccupied with the idea that it is nsf format and that all the channels have special names and attributes (which get sort of watered down or even lost when using that many channels together.) ultimately you're just writing generic chip music with monophonic channels, the only real thing you are changing is the amount that you have.
tl;dr multiexpansion stuff gets romanticised too much, it's just generic unlimited chipmusic that can be written using any tracker or DAW that you like. more of a novelty than of practical use if you ask me.
despite all that i'm not against seeing it implemented (i am not against seeing anything implemented) but it seems like a low priority/trivial feature compared to getting everything that's already implemented working properly. i imagine using them simultaneously in the tracker would be a snitch, but then getting nsf export to work is horrifying to think about.
Say, more than one channel create one line of notes... chorus, echo, phaze, synth new waveforms, using 10 pseudo-sine waves to build a square wave, whatsoever.
There exists people that love them. (although percussion is another thing, haha)
Not to say that some people have fun doing vocals, despite all of them being DURR.
I'm actually with Dave on this; the fun in all this is actually working with the limits available (i.e.: either strict 2A03 or added with only one expansion chip). Because the more channels are available, the less challenging it would be for an expert tracker.
And the amount of work it would take to export the NSF properly & still have it work for an NSF player! But the worst part about having multiple expansions is when a beginner decides to use all sound channels for their first song (with the thinking that all channels must be in use). I mean; even in an MMC5 module, it's pretty easy for people to overdo things with their songs.
As for those who really, desperately want to have multiple expansions to completely cover their favorite songs into 8-bit format, then all they really need to do is to either use ppMCK or export multiple WAV files for multiple copies of the same FamiTracker project (while using different expansions for every instance). Sure, you don't get an NSF file, but it's not like you can actually load a multi-expansion NSF onto a prototype cart & get it working; at least an MP3 of several compiled WAVs would work fine for all the "normal" people that don't even know what emulation is.
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As for me, I'd like to see it implemented but I realise the complexity of the task at hand, the dangers of such a feature (c.f. post above), and that there are more important things to be done for the time being.
My two cents.
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[quote=TechEmporium]...But the worst part about having multiple expansions is when a beginner decides to use all sound channels for their first song (with the thinking that all channels must be in use). I mean; even in an MMC5 module, it's pretty easy for people to overdo things with their songs...[/quote]
And then everyone who uses PP/MCK will easily overdo due to the number of channels available.
He has a point. In my ppMCK beginnings I'd constantly use [i]way[/i] too many channels for my own good. Mixing all that was a horrendous task and I frankly didn't have any idea what I was doing.
With that being said, it would be nice to have the possibility of doing it in FT, for those of us who are experienced/brave enough. :p
And it would make for some interesting Famicompo entries that much is certain. :o
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Ooh, I like that this has spawned a somewhat decent length conversation on the topic so far!
Thankfully, I can see where pretty much everyone is coming from. As far as the opinion of "What's the point of using the NES is you're not going to abide by it's limits?" I personally actually like using FamiTracker because of it's limits, and the challenge of working around said limits to make something that sounds awesome.
At the same time, though, there have been times where I've wished for the ability to have another channel to work with. Though that could partially be solved once N106 is integrated, whenever that'll happen. Even with that, though, there are some cool sounds that can be created through multiple expansion chips working in tandem.
And as far as multiple expansions being misused by people who are inexperienced with FamiTracker, and making music as a whole... Well, really, chances are, they'd misuse the 2A03 chip by itself, too. It's part of the learning experience.
[quote=TechEmporium]the fun in all this is actually working with the limits available[/quote]
just to be clear; that isn't my point. composing with as few or as many channels as you like is totally fine, even if i lean towards the "more with less" school of thought myself, getting a lot of fun from exposing a chip's idiosyncracies. what i am arguing is "why use nsf/famitracker?" just use MPT or something, it'd make your life much easier. and if you absolutely [i]must[/i] have it compile in NSF format for whatever reason (proof of concept I guess?) perhaps you could consider using it2nsf, which can handle all expansions simultaneously. probably a more sane solution than learning MML.
[quote=jrlepage]With that being said, it would be nice to have the possibility of doing it in FT, for those of us who are experienced/brave enough[/quote]
mmm again, i don't understand what's brave about using a practically unlimited amount of channels. it's only more brave than doing it as an XM or IT because of the quirky limitations for each channel/expansion, which become less interesting/apparent and more an inconvenience the more channels you add. people often say things like "this song is using every expansion at the same time, that's INSANE" - i mean, it isn't. they've set all expansion chip flags and wrote a chiptune using a lot of channels, that's all.
maybe jsr could just turn that shit on but make it disable/grey out the nsf export option, at least for the time being. just an idea.
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