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FamiTracker
I guess what you've done can be called 'premature optimization' - you've added an incredible amount of detail and layers that work well together, then decided 'oh wait, I need more exactly like this but different' - and now you can't muster up the effort to experiment since nothing you can whip up easily will sound the same.
This isn't actually helpful, just an observation ^^; I tried looking at it and my thoughts ended at 'let's make the drums double time and maybe start changing the progression, oh wait I'm not sure what to change it to'
You know, I'd actually considered this exact point.... I added too much polish to something unfinished.
Normally this isn't a problem since I know exactly what I did, but anyone else looking in from the outside would probably say to themselves "great, what the hell do I do with this that will mesh?"
It's not so much a matter of mustering effort as it is understanding this particular style of music and the chord usage generally associated with it. Basically I just threw together something with fun beats and a blues minor key (mostly inspired by that loops and doodles thing Robro did), but after I'd started I realized I was in over my head... so I guess I'd hoped it'd be fun for others to take a shot at it... but I probably should have expected this type of reaction.
_______________________
The only things certain in life are death and uncertainty.
[quote=Necrophageon]Basically I just threw together something with fun beats and a blues minor key (mostly inspired by that loops and doodles thing Robro did), but after I'd started I realized I was in over my head...[/quote]
Hah, I'm such a bad influence. Well luckily blues is pretty simple. Maybe [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-bar_blues]this will help!
Robro: Hahaha... well maybe these will be the baby-steps into real theory I need.
As it stands I can identify the most basic of scales (major, minor, blues, pentatonic). I have an extremely basic understanding of modes, but not so much their function. I can read sheet music, but it takes me forever and I always have to look up that "coda" stuff when I encounter it.
So basically most of this wiki page is total gobbledygook to me.... but I'm going to read it until it makes sense, damnit!
Zephemeros: style is out the window here, man... I threw down a beat.... pulled the bassline out of my keister (VRC6 square 2 and saw are doing exactly the same thing), and..... well I guess I just improv'd everything. Triangle doesn't really matter anyway since you can't hear it too well - I just had it more-or-less follow everything else.
Here's a mildly simplified version.
_______________________
The only things certain in life are death and uncertainty.
The roman numerals refer to chords. The 'I' chord is the one that starts at the root, so if you're playing in C that would be C-E-G. The IV chord starts at the fourth so that'd be F-A-C and the V chord starts at the fifth so that'd be G-B-D. Those are all major triads. If you want to denote the minor version of a chord you use lower case roman numerals so i, iv, v, etc. Then there's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_chords]seventh chords which are a lot more complicated but also awesome, and used all the time in jazz.
There's a LOT of theory about what chords lead to what other chords and I'm pretty bad at that, but [url=http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/genmap.htm]here's a handy flowchart!
(made a quick edit, just playing around. i modulated a tritone down for a frame and then a tritone again, which is back to the original key on the next frame. the transitions could be a lot smoother, but it was a quick edit to try and get away from that main progression.)
one thing i like to play around with is modulating into other keys that are:
* a tritone away
* a semitone up or down
* a perfect fifth up or down
* a minor third up or down
(and here's a quick and personal explanation of why they work and very simple and practical descriptions of what kind of effects they have to my ear)
- minor thirds work because they are the intervals of relative keys. it's that effect of going from c major to a minor, etc.
- perfect fifths work because they are the very reason why harmony works the way it does and why cadences work the way they do, it's nature at work. modulating down creates an effect of familiarity and modulating up creates a tasty contrast.
- semitones can also have a contrasting effect, tho not as strong as going a perfect fifth up.
- tritones are another big contrasting thing, but to me, modulating into a tritone almost has the effect of putting the song into a completely different universe or something. they're a lot of fun.
-- and when you bring in different modes and junk into these modulations, there's just so, so many choices and possibilities.
-- for example, this tune is is c minor, say you wanna try modulating a semitone up to c#. that c# could be c# minor, c# major, c# harmonic minor, c# dorian, etc. and you don't even have to stick to one, you can keep modulating from that one and it just keeps rolling. there are so many options to try and play around with.
now, the real question is 'how the hell can i play with these and still get some intuitive work done?' and yea, that's the trick. personally i play around with these on piano for hours and hours at a time and it's getting to the point where i don't have to think so much and i just know what effect i want and my fingers give it to me. give it some play time and you'll start to hear these things intuitively and won't even have to do all the calculating crap.
this is ultimately stuff to fall back on when you're stuck when working outside your comfort zone and trying to find your own original progressions that exist outside of your immediate vocabulary.
edit: robro, everything i just described is basically a more practical idea for playing with all that wacky stuff in the flow chart you linked. all the roman numerals outside of the key simply represent momentary modulation. to me, it just complicates things to a crippling degree to focus on the numeral stuff outside of simple major and minor scale degrees.
edit2: also, wanted to throw this out there, that none of this even begins to touch the possibilities of arrangement and voicings. that's a whole nother discussion. cos it's one thing to focus on this chord or that chord or progression, but the real possibilities are there where rhythmic and arrangement vocabulary meet.
Wow! Holy crap, gyms! That's some serious food for thought. You can be sure I'll be doing a lot more reading about this stuff.
The edit's transitions aside, these are the kinds of strange chords I'm totally unfamiliar and probably would never have come to on my own. Extra thanks for explaining what you did there; I guess tritones will be the first thing on my list.
On a side note: If I wanted to start getting into listening to blues/jazz, do either of you/anyone have any recommendations? I've tried poking around before, but there's just so much out there it's nigh impossible for an outsider looking in to decide what's good and what's blah.
Thanks again!
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The only things certain in life are death and uncertainty.
More edits. I wanted to give more solid examples so everyone doesn't think I'm just full of shit, haha :-P
The harmonic rhythms here are really bland and uninteresting. It's just harmonic information and not much else and is where the real issue lies with all this junk I'm talking about: playing with patterns isn't going to imprint your personality on the music. I'm still in the process of testing out my theory that, over time, this stuff is just like anything else you do with music, you're only repeating what you've heard before with tweaks of your own personal taste involving melody, harmony and rhythm; the more you familiarize yourself with all the patterns and the sounds that are possible with them, the more you can think within them in a natural way, relying on your own intuition and personality.
None of these progressions here are ones I particularly recall hearing before or have any expreience with really. All of these were crafted on the spot from just playing around with the nature of how certain chord qualities and root motions tend to flow. I'm sticking to basic cadence patterns(making my way to a IV - V7 back to the I) as well to keep things somewhat steady and comparable. Here I'm using a lot of 9, b9, 11, 13, dim and sus chords, so don't let the accidentals outside the 'keys' I'm modulating to throw you off. Pay attention to the root motion(the bass), that's what is ultimately guiding my chords and note choices in this example.
There are two main reference points you can think about when playing with root motions to go into new sections:
1) The overall implied key (C minor)
2) Whatever the last chord was before the next measure (Gm7 in this case, but the root(G) is all you need to look at)
I was gonna do an example set from both C and G, but I'm not up for the time commitment this is turning out to be. I think it demonstrates some of my points tho. Ignore the rough transitions of course:
((PLAYING WITH ROOT MOTIONS FROM Gm7))
semitone up:
pattern 04 - G# Major
pattern 06 - G# Minor
semitone down:
pattern 07 - F# Major
pattern 08 - F# Minor
perfect fifth down:
pattern 09 - C Major
pattern 0A - C Harmonic Minor
perfect fifth up:
pattern 0B - D Major
pattern 0C - D Dorian
...and that's where I ran out of willpower to continue, but you get the point. A tritone would have sounded pretty cool too. The first .ftm edit I made had tritone from C in that section and not from G(G's tritone would have a different effect). And of course you'd get different results and flavors when using the main key root(C) as a reference point.
I'd also like to point out that between playing with the semitones,fifths, minor thirds and tritones of C and G, the possible modulations includes all 12 tones! You can literally go anywhere, but thinking about things this way make it so that there is an actual reference point in mind and you're not just modulating randomly; you can have a good idea of what you're doing at any given point. You can just bounce around and take it anywhere, completely go into outer space if you want. And when you're done exploring, find the way back to your homebase key.
Also, these type of interval patterns and behavior don't just apply to modulating into new sections, but to chords themselves, the notes involved and how they interact with each other, and the progressions they tend to make. It's like a big part of the thread that weaves musical harmony together. But again, the other big part of that thread are the actual acoustics involved, aka. arrangement.
[quote=Necrophageon] You can be sure I'll be doing a lot more reading about this stuff.[/quote]
I'm not too sure there's anything to actually read for the particular collection of info I'm going on about here. All this junk is pretty much the current state of my own evolving relationship with harmony and the patterns and behavior I've noticed over time. And having said that, of course, take anything I say with a grain of salt.
There are a lot of details I'm choosing to leave out cos it'd make my posts like three times longer if I didn't, haha. For example, semitones, minor thirds, fifths and tritones, of course, aren't the only intervals that give you effects. I view them as 'building block' tho. John Coltrane, for example, and his 'Coltrane Changes' involved modulating in major thirds. The relationship qualities and how they feel and sound are really up to you, but the basic principle is solid, imo.
[quote=Necrophageon]On a side note: If I wanted to start getting into listening to blues/jazz, do either of you/anyone have any recommendations? I've tried poking around before, but there's just so much out there it's nigh impossible for an outsider looking in to decide what's good and what's blah.[/quote]
Oh jeez! That's a tough one. I've found that getting into jazz is a very involved experience. It takes having an active interest in music history in general to really dive into it and appreciate what's going on. Also, through getting into jazz, for me, it kind of spilled over into contemporary classical, and that spilled over into all the other classical periods. It's all connected, it's crazy.
But anyway, I'd suggest checking out the big guys: Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Kieth Jarrett, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Art Tatum, Chick Corea...it's a fuckin rabbit hole and half, man.
edit: should also mention Herbie Hancock and fusion bands like Weather Report.
[quote=gyms]you're only repeating what you've heard before with tweaks of your own personal taste involving melody, harmony and rhythm; the more you familiarize yourself with all the patterns and the sounds that are possible with them, the more you can think within them in a natural way, relying on your own intuition and personality.[/quote]This is exactly my sentiment on the matter... I can't imagine any particular style of music would be exempt from this.
[quote=gyms]I'm not too sure there's anything to actually read for the particular collection of info I'm going on about here. All this junk is pretty much the current state of my own evolving relationship with harmony and the patterns and behavior I've noticed over time.[/quote]I figured these were just your own personal insights into usage, but I guess I just assumed it would be very helpful alongside some theory literature.
[quote=gyms]I've found that getting into jazz is a very involved experience. It takes having an active interest in music history in general to really dive into it and appreciate what's going on.[/quote]Yes, I did get that impression on my little misadventures. :P Still, I'm not deterred. I've been avoiding a more serious musical education for a very long time, and while I can write a song or two occasionally, I feel I've seriously limited myself in this way... So color me interested.
[quote=gyms]But anyway, I'd suggest checking out the big guys: Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Kieth Jarrett, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Art Tatum, Chick Corea...it's a fuckin rabbit hole and half, man.
edit: should also mention Herbie Hancock and fusion bands like Weather Report.[/quote]Consider my quest begun!
Seriously though man - my sincerest of thanks to you for taking so much time out to try and explain all this to a layman like me (I get the feeling there are a lot of folks around here that will find this equally helpful), and these edits are fantastic! I will most certainly not be letting this go to waste!
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The only things certain in life are death and uncertainty.
No problem, I do hope it helps. I'm literally obsessed with the idea of 'musical freedom'. It's always the focus and interest with all the different music theories and junk out there...trying to simplify and break it all down into usable ideas and concepts. A lot of theories are saying the same things as others, but it's all coming from different places and not many of them really give you anything practical to work with. Tho, the ultimate is just listening to and playing music by other people, but i wonder sometimes how much i can really absorb if there's no base to break down what the music is actually doing. I like the idea of truly absorbing a piece of music to where all the elements within it become part of your intuitive musical arsenal.
Anyway, was thinking about it and thought I'd share a few other quick and simple patterns that are fun to play with:
* Take any major triad (we'll take C major, C-E-G):
-- Look at whatever the whole-tone above the triad's root is (D) and put it in the bass. Now you've got an easy 'neutral' D11 chord(I'll explain what 'neutral' means in a minute).
-- To reverse engineer the pattern, say you want an '11 sound' on a C, look at whatever the whole-tone below the C is (Bb), make a major triad from it (Bb-D-F or any inversion) and put it above C (Bb-D-F over C bass).
* Do the same thing as above, but make the whole-tone go the other way (C-E-G over Bb bass, or D-F#-A over C bass) and that gives you a neutral 13 chord
* Use the tone a perfect fifth below the major triad(C-E-G over F, G-B-D over C) for a neutral 9 chord.
Now, what 'neutral' means is that these chord voicings are missing the third. The third of a chord (major or minor) is the one tone that gives a chord it's major or minor flavor. Without the third, the chord has a very open and somewhat mysterious or undefined quality to it.
This is also why power chords work the way they do and why any type rock shreddage sounds the way it does. They're usually just a root-fifth or root-fourth. Without that third, it's not a major or minor quality, it is its own thing.
Also, eliminating both the third and the fifth makes it even more vague and open. If you play a Bm7 over a C bass, it makes a C13 that's missing both its third and fifth, and sounds all fancy, airy, open, mysterious or whatever you'd wanna call it.
So, if you wanna define the 'neutral' voicings, just add a major or minor third over that bass note and see what you get. You can take a step further and add the fifth too, now you're making some big 6 note chords.
You can get even more 'easy' fancy pants chords by playing around with bass notes under minor triads. It's really easy, fun to play with and also opens the door to understanding more complex chords and voicings.
edit: Oh yea, another neat thing worth mentioning: using volume control on the more tense voices of chords (the 9,11,13 or other wacky stuff like flat/sharp 9 and 5). Some people like to load the hell out of their chords with everything that can possibly fit, but make the tense voices really quiet while the more consonant voices like the thirds, fifths and sevenths sounds off nice and loud. I've heard some peeps refer to it as 'coloring' the chords. I've noticed Maxo doing this kind of thing a lot in his tunes.
haha, naw I don't think I have much else to say after all that. Besides, as much as I talk theory junk all the time, I really don't like talking about it much and try to focus on experiencing these relationships more than analyzing them.
I do hope this stuff makes some sense. If anyone is confused or something, say so and I'll try to clarify with some ftm examples(if anyone really cares enough to explore my methods). The goal with writing all this was to try and share what I find to be a really easy and condensed version of whatever amount of practicality can be squeezed from a stack of theory books. Ultimately it's there for you when you wanna just play around and explore.
